Lyanna Stark is one character in ASOIAF who, in my opinion, is liked far more than she deserves in this fandom. Why? Because Lyanna is so brave! Such a sweet little innocent girl…
Well, brave she might have been as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, but I do not think she was innocent. Why? Well, she might be Rhaegar’s victim to a certain extent, yes, but if the “abduction” was actually an elopment, then Lyanna is not blameless, and is also a hypocrite of the first order.
If she and Rhaegar actually eloped, then she did so with the full knowledge of the fact that she is playing a large role in the dishonor of the Crown Princess.
“Oh, but Elia is Dornish!” is an argument often used to excuse Lyanna. But I ask, so what? So what if Elia is Dornish? No woman can swallow such an affront on her honor, true love be damned. If Rhaegar had chosen to go after a common born mistress, then, I think Elia would have been fine with it. But Rhaegar chose Lyanna. Lyanna Stark, who is basically the polar opposite of Elia, and not in a good way. Once Rhaegar has already crowned Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty and also run away with the same girl, what assurance does Elia have of her future? Of the future of her children? No woman with any amount of self respect would consent to playing second fiddle to a mistress (and that’s what Lyanna legally is, polygamy is illegal, the last person to practice THAT was Maegor the Cruel, what a great precedent), least of all when the mistress in question belongs to a powerful House, and, for all Elia knew, could want power for her child.
In fact, Elia being Dornish is actually a reason why she would not be okay with Rhaegar and Lyanna’s hanky panky. Dornish women are brought up with a sense of self-worth, at least, that’s my impression of their culture. And no daughter of Nymeria could possibly be a doormat.
Since we have established that Elia’s Dornish upbringing is NOT a reason she would be okay with R/L illicit hanky-panky, that’s one argument disarmed.
Another argument I often see is: “Lyanna was so young!” To that I say this: Yes, she was young. Yet she was old enough to say to Ned Stark that “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it does not change a man’s nature”. She was old enough to spurn Robert because of his bastards. That’s why it is very, very hypocritical of her to be okay with the elopment in the first place. What is the difference between Robert and Lyanna? Both of them acted on their desires, and to hell with the consequences. Somewhere I read on Tumblr that since Lyanna wasn’t “old enough to buy a pillow pet” when she died. I agree, she was seventeen when she died, that’s too young. But, a lot of people have made choices that they have been vilified in the fandom as well in-universe at much younger ages. Sansa Stark, for example, was what, 11? At the same age Lyanna died holding her laurel of roses that set off a war, Jaime Lannister sacrificed his honor for the sake of half a million people. I am not saying that Lyanna was a seductress, she was not. The bulk of the guilt is Rhaegar’s, yes, but Lyanna is not blameless. She chose, and she died with the laurel that signified her choice.
The most irritating argument is this: “Elia deserved it, she wasn’t worthy, she probably cheated on Rhaegar, because she’s Dornish!” THIS. IS. JUST. WRONG. On SO many levels. Firstly, it’s not okay to cheat on a woman, who, despite her ill health, gave Rhaegar two healthy children, because her constitution is sickly. You know why? Basic humanity. Secondly, the Dornish argument. See above. Rinse and repeat. We do not know she cheated on Rhaegar, while Rhaegar/Lyanna is all but canon. Elia, however, is a topic for another day.
Tl;dr: Lyanna is not a sweet little baby girl, Elia would NOT be okay with Rhaegar/Lyanna crapshow, and oh, did I mention that Saint Lyanna/Rhaegar the Blessed is not magically okay because Elia was Dornish?
Why does it have to be an Elia vs Lyanna thing. Why can’t be to different women being used and ultimately killed by the actions of one asshole crown prince. Also to be quite honest your characterization of Elia Martell is so full of assumptions, its almost pure head canon. She one of the least developed characters in the series, which in my opinion is it’s own problem and I could go on a separate rant about that bullshit.
We don’t know her opinion on Rhaegar running of with Lyanna, but I like you I do believe she wasn’t even slightly okay with it.
I happen to agree with you on it being bullshit how people say that since she was Dornish she would be okay with it, not all Dornish people are Oberyn!
“What is the difference between Robert and Lyanna?“ Seriously, a fucking lot. Robert viewed women as nothing but objects for his pleasure, was physically, emotional and mentally abusive to Cersei Lannister. He clearly didn’t care that much about his kids, let alone his kingdom. And the cherry on top is he can’t remember her face, the woman he “loved”. He can’t even remember anything about her, and its made pretty clear he didn’t really know anything about her in the first place. I don’t even know what to write anymore because that comparison is so god damn disgusting that it is really fucking with my mind right now. I mean you say you aren’t calling her a seductress but it does seem like you are strongly implying that she is, or that she was an unknowingly seductress.
She was like you stated 15/16, and yet you still want to put blame on her? Do you put any blame on a 15 year old student that has an affair with their high school teacher when that is in the news? If you do then you are at least consistent. And before someone replies back about how 16 is the legal age in Westeros for being an adult. It might be but just because it is the legal age doesn’t mean that it is the reality. Robb Stark got himself killed and lost a war because he was a snot-nosed teenager.
Also about the Sansa thing, yes she is vilified for what she did. One of the reasons being is we the audience actaully saw what happened because of her actions, we didn’t hear about it from others years later with only snippets of info to go by. Maybe instead of using that as an excuse to vilify Lyanna, we could talk about why Sansa gets vilified to, in my opinion, a horrible degree by this fandom.
I was gonna write more but I am too tired to keep writing and I need some sleep, so I am gonna end with these main points. The racist views people put on Dornish characters is utter bullshit and disgusting. Lyanna Stark might deserve some blame(none IMHO) but to make it into some Lyanna vs Elia stuff is just fucked up. The northern seductress theory or whatever you want call it that some people in this fandom love to use on Lyanna is disturbing. Rhaegar was an asshole no matter how the whole “abduction” went down. Saint Rhaegar and Lyanna is stupid, but so is any other character made into a saintly figure including Elia. Also whats with the Lyanna hatred? Also if you are gonna basically call her a seductress that deserves to be vilified be honest at least and don’t tell people that isn’t what you are doing.
Sorry but seeing so many Elia Martell fans blaming Lyanna Stark is quite frankly pretty disgusting. Just to clarify, I am a fan of both characters, but I can realize that they are both victims of a horrible situation in a shitty world, but to blame Lyanna(and obviously Elia, but I am responding to a northern seductress post) for what happened is fucked up. Why does this have to be an Elia vs Lyanna thing?
Hi, I’m glad you wrote this. This post is indeed based on the assumption that Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar, which is almost accepted by most of the fandom that I’ve interacted with as canon (she died with blue roses in hand.) In that situation, even if she had not seduced Rhaegar (and she has not, I have not said that Lyanna seduced Rhaegar, it was quite obviously the other way round.)
However, if we go with the assumption that it was an elopement, as with the first post, even though, ultimately, Lyanna was a victim, at first, she did leave with him. I do specify that, if the circumstances are as above, then and only then is she to blamed to a certain extent for what happened.
I have explicitly stated that I DO NOT think that she is a seductress, however, if that is how you wish to read the post, that’s your interpretation. I just think that she was a teenage girl who made a wrong choice and did not consider the implications of it even till the end considering that she did die surrounded by blue roses as Ned thinks, symbolic of her laurel.
Elia Martell is not a saint, either. That is precisely why I believe she would not be okay with Rhaegar/Lyanna. What woman would be fine with the threat of another woman in her life, whose children might be entitled to the rightful inheritance of Elia’s own children?
As for my question “What is the difference between Robert and Lyanna?” it is pertaining to this particular situation. Robert was a git, guaranteed, but Lyanna is somewhat hypocritical to state that “Love is sweet, but cannot change a man’s nature” and then go with Rhaegar, the crown Prince, who is married to a fine woman and has two heirs of his body.
In regard to the Lyanna vs Elia, I was trying to envision the situation in Elia’s POV. Obviously, she cannot be expected to give Lyanna a pass, can she? The situation is Elia vs Lyanna in canon if this has happened.
This is what I think, if you disagree, it’s fine.
I can’t say I blame Lyanna to any discernible extent for what happened. Rhaegar would have taken her anyway and she was a teen. However, unlike some of the fandom, I don’t simply acknowledge that she acted selfishly and callously but wave it away because she was a teen. I believe she was selfish and cruel (in this case) even for a girl her age. I believe she should be called out on it and it has nothing to do with Rhaegar’s blame for the whole sorry mess.
And the entire so called feminism surrounding Lyanna vs Elia makes me shake my head. It isn’t feminist at all to sidestep around the matter and ascribe your own feelings about the girl who acted in a mean, cheap and callous way but was naive because she was young to the woman who would pay the ultimate price for Lyanna’s love delusions anyway. Lyanna vs Elia is practically a given and as disgusting as it sounds, it would have been a given even if Lyanna WAS abducted. She’s still Rhaegar’s second wife/the mistress favoured over his wife and the potential mother of Elia’s kids’ problems with inheritance and very existence. Elia might have felt pity for the girl but she would be wary of her and take care to neutralize her. Undoubtedly, fans would think her a monster then. I notice that almost no one bats an eyelid at the idea that Lyanna’s first romantic thrills clearly came when a man humiliated his pregnant wife for all the world to see right in front of her. She witnessed it and it seems that she gloried in it. (Yes, I know GRRM can turn it all on its head but for now, this is the angle he seems to be going for.) No one cares. But Elia’s possible reactions in posts and metas are scrutinized and woe to her if she doesn’t show enough understanding for Lyanna’s situation.
Alas, I think Elia is expected to give Lyanna a pass because feminism and being just to poor Lya clearly tops her and her children’s safety all the way.
A couple of things:
You’re making a lot of assumptions about how Lyanna acted and felt when we know next to nothing. You say she acted cruelly and callously but admit she could have been abducted. How is being abducted “acting cruelly and callously”?
You say it isn’t feminism to ascribe your own feelings but then you do just that, and call a sixteen year old girl “mean”, when you don’t know whether she was abducted, and at the least she was manipulated by an older man. Both women are in horrible situations and the fact that their society pits them against each other is a symptom of misogyny. Feminism means recognizing that. Feminism means not making assumptions about how a woman who is preyed on by an older man is feeling and thinking in order to put blame on her. That doesn’t mean we should blame Elia in any way, but if Elia blamed Lyanna or saw her as a threat, it is because of the inherent misogyny in the situation. That doesn’t mean Elia is at fault but we as readers are absolutely at fault if we fail to recognize how misogyny puts both women in an impossible situation, and buy into a culture that allows the abuse of these women to happen.
And just because other people don’t realize that and say misogynistic things about Elia does not give you a right to shift the blame onto another victimized woman. You’re just promoting the same misogynistic logic, and worse, you are implying that there are some women who are acceptable targets for misogyny.
Lyanna “felt her first romantic thrills”, yadayada, this is entirely made up by you. We know almost nothing about Lyanna, how she felt, or what she thought.
Also, if you can understand the awful situation that Elia is in, you should be able to understand Lyanna’s, as a young girl betrothed to a man she knew was awful. Maybe she was aware of how awful things were for Elia, but felt she had no other option to escape a marriage that, given how Robert is with Cersei, probably would have been abusive. Lyanna and Elia are both victims and both of them are acting in situations where they had very little choice.
Moreover, feminism means criticizing the patriarchal structure that put these two women in this situation. Deflecting blame away from the abusive power structure and onto women is very, very much not feminism.
What? Of course I’m making assumptions. I thought it was clear everyone did when we’re talking about characters long dead. Sometimes, I just forget to include it for the new people who may be unaware of my views on Lyanna Stark who was, to me, based on the picture *I* see of her, not someone I find cute or whatever. This has nothing to do with her being a victim. She was. It doesn’t depend on cuteness. This is about the way I gather she acted before and after the so called “elopement”. It has nothing to do with Rhaegar and everything with the way I see Lyanna. You can read my post on her in my April archives if you’re interested. For now, I’ll say that you seem to have read my post wrong – or perhaps I worded it wrong, who knows? A truly abducted against her will Lyanna is another scenario, not the cheap and mean one.
I agree about blame. I just wonder where you saw it in my post. Where did I write, “Lyanna was to blame for what happened to her”? In fact, I wrote the exact opposite. But it seems to me that every doubt anyone raises in Lyanna’s character is taken by many – and forgive me if I’m wrong but your reaction to my post makes me think you’re one of them – as doubting her status as a victim. The two have nothing in common and I usually go to great pains to point this out. Yes, Lyanna was a victim, objectively. She was also unlikable, self-absorbed, and unable to truly wish what she did away, in a true Stark maid (Bael the Bard’s girl) fashion. since she died with the blue roses in her hands – to me. She’s all this to me, subjectively. So what? It doesn’t make her guilty or less of a victim.
Her first romantic thrills? Made up by me? You’re so kind! It was totally me who wrore that Lyanna sniffled at Rhaegar’s song. I was so the one who placed those roses from Elia’s humiliation (my assumption again, just in case) near her as she died. That she clearly thought him worthy enough to decide to run away with him after the slap he gave his wife in Lyanna’s presence and she carried the laurel with her everywhere (if it was found at her death bed) because it was just so sweet, what Rhaegar did. Mind you, when he did it, she did not smile. All smiles died and I don’t think Ned would fail to notice if she was grinning. She was stunned. Only later did she decide, consciously, that it was wonderful. (My assumption. See? I said it first.)
You say that Elia blaming Lyanna doesn’t mean Elia is at fault but that’s the sentiment I encounter all over the fandom. Too many people can only like Elia if she puts herself in the role of Lyanna’s mother, older sister, psychologist, and handmaiden.
Please stop talking about blame under a post that has nothing to do with it. I literally said that Lyanna was not to blame. I simply said that she was unappealing to me, personally. I am not interested in constantly asserting how objectively awful Rhaegar was. It is clear. But god forbid if someone expresses any doubt in Lyanna’s heart of pure gold. Then, they’re blaming the victim.
Making assumptions about how Lyanna felt and acted and thought IS misogyny and IS victim blaming. That’s it. The end.
We don’t have Lyanna’s thoughts. You have a story from another character about how she cried at a song, which can mean like, absolutely anything. She clutched the blue roses and cried at a song and therefore she was mean and selfish? What in the fuck? WHAT in the FUCK?
Here is the problem. Your assumptions about Lyanna are all misogynistic stereotypes which are frequently used to blame women for being abused. You may not think that is what you are doing, but it is. You go off about how in YOUR opinion, this teenage girl made a decision about something she would absolutely have no choice about, and no power to say no. Even if she had said no to Rhaegar, he could have absolutely abducted her anyway, and her other choice is a forced marriage. This creates a situation where it is almost impossible for her to say no, regardless of how she felt. So I don’t want to hear about how she’s selfish.
I also don’t want to hear about how she’s selfish for maybe falling in love with a man who absolutely preyed on her. Because this kind of thing happens in real life to girls and women. Falling in love with someone who hurts you does not make you selfish, or stupid, or a bad person. And it is absolutely disgusting for you to criticize Lyanna for that. Absolutely disgusting. If you think women are “unappealing” for falling in love with men who abuse them, congratulations, you are a misogynist. If you truly care about women and survivors, please educate yourself before you say this kind of thing. I have told you this over and over and over again wrt other characters in this series. You do not have a right to speak about abuse or assault if you don’t understand any of the issues involved, and you don’t.
And now you are admitting she was a victim, but a few hours ago you told me she was not completely blameless. So, your argument is that she is a victim but also blameworthy? That is the literal meaning of “victim blaming”. Abuse victims are not to blame IN ANY WAY for situations their abusers put them in. The end. Abuse victims are not selfish for being in situations their abusers put them in, and you don’t have a right to criticize or make assumptions about anyone who is in that situation.
The end? Because you say so? OK. God forbid anyone say something Lyanna apologists don’t like to hear or draw conclusions from the text that differ from, “Lyanna was SUCH a darling!”.
I won’t reply to your twisting of my words since your agenda is obvious – and let’s not forget that you don’t want to hear anything I have to say, shall we? Am I allowed to humbly ask a question, since this is my page and all, though? I think I will.
So, I don’t remember ever encountering you before today, yet you claim you have tried to teach me the wrong of my ways many times before, am I right to assume you’re the anon who came here to ask if I, a 21 century woman, would blame a girl of 14 if my pervert husband preyed on her, as if it had anything to do with Elia’s situation?
No, I thought you were the OP, so that part I apologize for.
But yes, that’s the end. You literally told me that you assumed Lyanna was selfish because of some vague snippets we have of what some man did to her. That is misogyny and victim blaming and this is not up for debate. You do not have a right to make assumptions about how a woman was acting while some dude abused her. You do not have a right to call her selfish. You do not have a right to criticize her in any way for a situation where she was abused. That is not your call to make. Don’t believe me, look at literally any source of your choice about abuse. I dare you. Do it right now.
Yeah, I suppose it’s much sweeter to say it’s the end because the person you’re arguing with is a mysogynist, so not worth debating. This way, you can avoid reading what they actually wrote in the past After all, you may find out that this person dislikes your fave for reasons and periods well before Rhaegar made his sick overtures and kept her away from the world and you don’t want to see this, right?
No need to pretend that you apologize, BTW. Mistakes happen. If you were truly apologizing, you would have read what I have written about my perception of Lyanna in my own posts, one of which I pointed you at, instead of shooting blindly just like you did when you thought I was the OP. It’s the internet. I won’t break down in tears because someone got my tumblr identity wrong and didn’t apologize without meaning it.
You wrote “of course I’m making assumptions.”
Do not make assumptions about how a teenage girl acted while she was being abused.
I already addressed what you wrote, but you didn’t respond.
Also, my fave?? Lyanna is like, barely a character and hardly my fave. Which makes it all the more ridiculous for you to talk about how you disliked her “long before” Rhaegar abused her, which is pretty much the whole of her character.
What is it that you disliked? That she did not want an arranged marriage with a misogynistic man? That she was gender nonconforming? Cause like, that’s all we know about her and hating women for not wanting to be forced into marriage or being GNC is, guess what, misogyny.
@secretlyatargaryen this person also made a post a while back that included the phrase “Lyanna was ready to drop her panties for Rhaegar” or something along those lines, so I mean, you’re not wrong. Talk about revisionist.
It is such a fucking leap to equate “Lyanna died with rose petals in her hands,” which may very well have been a narrative conceit by the notoriously romantically-minded Ned (never mind that rose petals that old would have crumbled into dust by then, and wouldn’t release any smell at all) with “Lyanna kept the laurel for years and died with it because she relished Elia’s humiliation and was in love with Rhaegar, therefore she SUCKS.” Check out this post.
Death By Catchphrase 